Below is back and forth correspondence between myself (in red) and a long time WLSS member. The items are factual excerpts from email correspondence and are posted with the member's permission.
The hope is we can all learn from other people's misfortunes/experiences.
1) May 11, 2008: "Amidst a bit of sun this morning, a promethea eclosed in my pen. Nice-sized male, but he's WAY too early to find mates!"
2) May 15, 2008: "Cool weather finally having past, my cocoon pen has been popping these past two days. Two lunas emerged, including a lovely female which failed to attract a mate last night. Male prometheas and cecropias also eclosed. All males, including the luna, were released in a state park 10 miles from here, so it's unlikely they'll return to any females in my breeding cages.
"Two of the cecropias have been runts. Healthy but quite small. One eclosed from a very small cocoon, the other from a big, baggy one. I recall seeing pictures of cecropia runts on your website, but have never had any before here. Is dwarfism fairly common in this species? Could the dry winter and spring have had any effect on size?"
3) May 16, 2008: "Cool, rainy weather returned today, with temperatures in the low 50s. The female luna and two female prometheas were in the breeding cage, sheltered from the rain. What's more, all three moths had positioned themselves toward the door on the tiny veranda. That is, none were facing out toward the backyard. Basically the females were out of sight -- though, were any males flying on a day or night like this, they could have easily reached the cage and mated.
"Anyway, when I went out on the veranda early this evening, one promethea was on the floor of the cage, on its side. The other promethea and luna had vanished without a trace. The cage seemed undisturbed in any way, and the top was firmly secured.
"I assume one or more birds may have attached and seized the luna and promethea. It would have had to have been a bird with a longish, sharp beak -- a blue jay, grackle, mockingbird, catbird or crow. Still, it's puzzling. The moths would not have been easily visible. Not only were they facing the house, but a view of the rest of the cage would have been obscured by the cocoon pens, which are made of a dense, black nylon mesh. A crow or jay, both being Corvidae, would have had the brains to plot this sneak attack.
But my experience as a birdwatcher has been that it's almost impossible to approach either crows or jays, and they tend to keep their distance from household activity. Same with mockingbirds. Grackles can be pretty brazen, but they have a flock mentality. Catbirds, however, nest each year in our yard, and they are known for their relative 'tameness.'
"I should point out two other things. Last summer, two or three moths were attacked in the breeding cage, something that had never happened before.
"These moths were injured with what looked like slight puncture wounds. I didn't know if the attackers had been birds or yellowjackets. But these attacks occurred over the summer, during hot weather. I'm wondering whether the unseasonably cool weather of late has emboldened birds who may be hungry from a lack of available insects?
"I'm also wondering whether the birds have been watching me, and have figured out that breeding cage is nothing more than an insect birdfeeder? If so, this is chilling, and I'll have to find other places to put my cage. I do have bird cages which I use as spare breeders, strategically placing them in the back yard. But these are vulnerable to birds and rain, and last summer a pair of mating lunas in my neighbor's back yard vanished the next morning, no doubt from crafty birds.
"In good news, the surviving promethea was uninjured, and must have been knocked off the cage mesh during the attack. I suspect the cool weather slowed the moths' reflexes considerably. She's spending the night indoors, and perked up as soon as she regulated her body temperature.
"I'm sure you've heard these stories before. Any thoughts you have would be appreciated."
It sounds like birds to me, although yellow jackets or some large wasp might
also be taking them, although I think a strong
pull would be necessary to tug them through the cage walls.
Birds will watch you. Blue jays and crows, although quite wary, are
also very brazen. Crows are especially intelligent.
There is probably one guy up on the roof, timing and charting your
daily visits, while a few others are waiting for his signal that
lunch is on.
Blue jays and crows will visit house bird feeders! They're probably
taking bets right now on what you'll be offering tomorrow.
4) May 18, 2008: "Found my two promethea females on the bottom of the breeding cage today.
"One was alright, but the other had a large chunk out of a forewing -- and, upon closer inspection, both antennae were missing as well. Unable to control its flight, or anything else, I tossed the moth into a flower bed. I suspect it has already become a meal.
"Later, about 7 p.m., I went to check on a few moths still in the heavy nylon mesh cocoon pen. There, on top of the pen, eyeing the potential feast was, of all things...an ordinary robin! A cecropia and luna female will spend tonight scenting away from my veranda.
"When I think back to last summer -- my memory somewhat blurred by my accident -- I vaguely recall a couple of male pollies, paired with females from the outside of the breeding cage, vanishing early in the morning. I'm thinking now they were grabbed by birds, especially as their mates were apparently injured in the process. It's fascinating to think that birds may have the abillity to remember a food source from one season to the next -- and perhaps pass that "knowledge" to other birds who are observing their actions.
I am surprised the jays shared that info with the
robin, usually they are tight beaked about such things. Maybe the
robin picked it up while perched
on a phone line.
I do not agree with many of Darwin's theories. I, seriously, as
opposed to above teasings, think that larvae may have the ability to
see their surroundings, store the images in their tiny brains and
genetically transmit those images with a mechanism that can alter
genetics to create subsequent generations that are better
camouflaged in their environment.
I see too many perfect mimics to think it is just a survival of the
fittest mechanism.
"You mentioned that the moths will last longer if chilled. I would presume that this goes for moths in the wild, too, with eclosures and pairings brought to a standstill during weather like this. If it's sunny and 70 tomorrow, might my luna and cecropia yet lure mates? Or could they be out of luck because they're too old?
"Meanwhile, some good news. The young enthusiast to whom I gave a pair of luna and polyphemus cocoons, had her two pollies eclose in her apartment yesterday. The male and female are from totally different stock and are paired as I write!
I would think the cold shuts everything down and slows metabolic rate almost to a standstill, so I think your luna and cecropia may still be good for another night or so.
6) May 19, 2008: "Very windy all day here, and it's cold (upper 50s) for mid-May. I brought female cecropia and luna indoors this morning. Will dip to mid- to upper 40s tonight. Is it worth setting them outside again tonight, or would this kind of weather ground males for the evening? I could put the breeding cages in the garage, with the door fairly ajar, to shelter them from the wind."
Mid forties is borderline for both species. Keeping them cool, however, will prolong their lives.
7) May 19, 2008: "Just happened to step out on my veranda at 12:45 a.m., to check on the four-day-old female cecropia, now in my spare breeding cage. At that moment a runt male was just preparing to hook up with her. It's 51 degrees outside!
"...I doubt this one is mine because my 2 runts (out of 8 males) were released in a state park 8 miles away on May 15.
"At 1 a.m, I checked on the pair and -- lo and behold -- a second, much larger male had managed to squeeze its way into the cage and was flapping about! Now, though, he seems to have settled down an inch from the mating pair. As this spare cage is somewhat exposed to bird predation, I very gently angled a board against the cage to conceal the moths. Hope all will be well at 8 a.m?
Might a 4-day-old female and a runt male produce eggs worth subcontracting for you?"
Four day old female would be fine, but a runt male
would not. I try to provide a quality product. ....
Personally, I would prefer to receive eggs from the pairing of two
full sized adults. I would be disappointed if I
obtained stock that might be genetically inferior. I still follow the
golden rule and try to treat others the way I would like to be
treated. Occasionally I get a pairing with a male that is
"questionable/marginal" with regard to size, color. etc. I do not
ship those eggs.
8) May 20: "The big news here is the morning massacre. As I mentioned last night, I'd set my female cecropia back out on the veranda, but in my smaller, spare breeding cage. It was fairly concealed by the cocoon pens. I further hid the cage by angling a large piece of plywood against it.
"I had considered bringing the cage indoors overnight, but it was breezy, and the mating male was having to struggle to stay paired with the female. I thought he might release his grip and fly off if I disturbed the cage.
"7:30 a.m. this morning, I checked on the moths, including the large male who had wedged himself into the cage. Both males were gone, and there were shorn wings on the veranda floor. The female was at the bottom of the cage, her wings badly torn.
"Despite the concealment, these moths proved easy pickings for my marauding robins. What amazes me is that the big breeding cage has sat on the front porch for four nights now (and currently has two lunas in it). Despite the birds' sharp eyesight, this smaller cage would have been difficult to see from the yard or from a tree. Clearly, the birds must be visiting the veranda every morning, with or without the breeding cages. They simply know, and can remember, that the veranda is now a diner. Eventually, I presume they'll discover the front porch as well!
"QUESTION: Other than damaged wings, the female appears intact. Her abdomen looks good, and she is behaving normally. No doubt pairings are a hazardous time in the wild as well, and I suspect she defensively flopped the floor of the cage when the runt male was attacked. The bird or birds could reach her wings, but not her body. She has already climbed back to the top of the cage, which is safely indoors. While not quality stock, is there any reason she won't begin depositing fertile eggs tonight? She may be the only cecropia pairing I get this season."
I suspect she will deposit fertile eggs tonight, but
I cannot guarantee 1) the eggs will be fertile (a genetic runt male
may also have other deficiencies) or 2) she will begin depositing
fertile eggs tonight (she may have internal injuries = might have
been ruptured when bird pulled male off her, might have been pecked
at by birds, might have ruptured when she flopped to floor of cage)
or (she might have the "jitters", or be egg bound, etc.)
If the male was a runt because of weather/hostplant, etc., and not
genetics, and female is fertile and fine (not injured) and deposits
eggs, then you may get full sized perfectly healthy cocoons and moths
from these eggs.
9) May 22: I am curious about the cecropia runts, however. I'm sure the male that visited my female last night wasn't one of the moths I released last week. We had a very dry late winter and April, which is perhaps prompting the runtiness. But I do get concerned this area may be a bad laboratory for rearing Saturniidae. I release males in far-flung parks, in an effort to keep them from returning to my caged females. Over the years, however, I wonder whether there has been too much mixing between wild and domestic moths here, thanks to me. Pollies and promethea are very abundant locally, so this mixing should pose no problem. Not sure about the less common cecropias and lunas. I hope I'm not slowly creating an island of dwarves!"
Occasionally runts are encountered in nature. I saw a male polyphemus about
four years ago at a light in New Brunswick.
It was so small, flying around in the air, that I thought it was an io. When
I captured it, wingspan was only slightly over three inches. Derek
Bridgehouse from Nova Scotia showed me a wild male cecropia he had
collected, again wingspan slightly
over 3 inches.
Don't know why but I think it may have to do with a late flight from
previous summer where larvae might have been stunted in their growth
by onset of cool fall weather. Both these runts came from pretty
close to the ocean. The David Albaugh runt from the link above
came from Rhode Island.
It would seem there would be an advantage to smaller moths with shorter
periods in larval stage so I do not know why survival mechanisms don't
favour smaller poly, luna, cecropia, etc.
I don't think your mixing would be a problem, but I don't live release any
small stuff.
May 23: "Amazing -- my two female lunas, stationed on the front porch, the breeding cage concealed by railing and large rocking chairs, were killed and eaten by the marauding avian(s). Must have happened at daybreak. Luna wings were scattered about the porch floor. One moth was spending its second night, the other its fourth cool night, on this porch. The porch is on the front of the house, facing the street; the veranda occcupies a tiny corner at the back of the house.
"So, I'm left to ponder: Is it one murderous bird, or a collective wisdom among the birds in our back yard? Can the killers now recognize my breeding cages wherever they're placed? Have the extremities of my house become one big bird-feeder, which the birds are routinely visiting each morning? Or are the birds just so darn hungry from the cold, that human habitation is no longer an obstacle to their appetites?
Maybe it's all of the above? Whatever, I've got to figure out some alternative, or my moth stock is doomed!"
Whatever the case, I agree you have got to come up with an alternative.
I would like permission to publish all your emails with regard to bird
problems last two weeks on website in Bill's Articles section.
I will omit your name; it might be good to see how persistent birds can be,
and might help others to avert the problem.
Time to build a more secure outer cage I think. One that birds cannot
enter or peck through.
Once they have found you, they'll never let you go!
May 23: "I'd be delighted to have you to post my messages on the Hitchcockian bird attacks! Would be interesting to find out that I'm not alone. Indeed, in the meantime, I've got to come up with some solutions -- be it cage design or placement, or both. I've currently got freshly eclosed female cecropia and polyphemus in the cocoon pens. Won't have time today to construct a double-walled cage."
May 23: "Forgot to mention that I saw a mourning dove sitting on top of my large cocoon pen on the veranda about 8 a.m. I don't think of doves as being particularly aggressive (it's against the Geneva Convention). But, hey, if there are injured moths flailing about helplessly, why not join in the carnage!"
There are several lessons to be learned from this
correspondence. Perhaps the most important is that birds are hungry,
intelligent and persistent. If you have food they would like to eat in
your cages, they will (eventualy) find a way to access it, unless you
make sure there is absolutely "NO WAY!" they can get to it.
I had written previously (2001) about bird attacks on my rearing
sleeves. In that article I mentioned my first approach/solution was
to get some fibre glass screening to make new
sleeves. Note my report: The birds were able to tear
right through the fibre glass when it was not protected with netting.
My second approach was to cover the sleeves with bird netting.
That has worked well for me ever since, but it adds a great deal of
time to the operation. Fortunately the birdnetting material has a
long life, and I am still using birdnetting covers assembled in
2000.
A second lesson is that the birds are early risers. Most
of them begin feeding at dawn.
Please visit Daylight and
Portable Mating Cages and
Hyalophora columbia
on Prince Edward Island.
June is a very tiring month for me here on Prince Edward Island.
I usually have many moths to get paired. I do not set my portable
mating cages out in the evening until the birds have settled.
The cages are kept inside until at least 9:30 pm, sometimes closer to
10:00 around June 22.
I am usually awake and visiting lights until 1:00 am and I am also
periodically checking the cages. That is not a constant vigil. On
a few occasions I have hand captured undesirable wild males that
have responded to the females, before they have had a chance
to couple. I have destroyed those males rather
than let them pair with my caged females or give them the
opportunity to fly off and pair with wild females.
On a couple of occasions, undesirable males
(undersized or weak scaling or obviously aged and possibly spent)
have been found coupled with my females. I have not reared those eggs
or shipped them to customers. The female gets saved as a specimen.
Probably 95-98% or higher pairings are with desirable wild males,
often very beautiful.
If my cecropia females have paired by 1:00 am, then I bring
the cages back indoors. I learned from experience that I could
leave the cages out until just before dawn and have had
cecropia respond at that time, but that is also the flight time for
male columbia, and they pair readily with cecropia females.
Columbia females begin calling just before dawn. When I have
columbia that I wish to get paired, I set the cages out, usually
around 10:00-11:00pm, in different localities, sometimes several
miles from home. I then set my alarm clock for 4:30 am so that I can
select the incoming males, hand capture them and manually place them
in the mating cages with the females.
The males are quite agressive and pairing usually occurs within a few
minutes. Two tricks I have learned regarding moving the cages in
strong breezes: 1) I had barbell weights from an earlier time
which fit snuggly (very important
unless you want a squashed female) inside the cages. This is
great when you need to return the cages to your car for
transportation home.
2) I stand with my back to the wind as much as possible, or keep the
cage close to my body when conditions are breezy.
Cages are always brought back indoors.
If you are rearing small numbers of moths, you may never have to take
any precautions and you may never have any problems.
However, if you are working with larger numbers on a year to year
basis, eventually the birds or other predators (racoons, cats, mice,
etc.) will probably find you and your generous offerings.
I strongly recommend that, whatever your circumstances, you secure
your cocoons/adult moths in predator proof containments. I realize
not all of you have the luxury of bringing your moths into the house.
A garage, barn, veranda or secure double-walled cage is recommended.
A one time attack is probably a rarity. Once they
have found you, they will never let you go.
June 6: "Don't know if this is worth adding to the
"Murder/Mahyem" correspondence on the website?
"Three polyphemus (all females) were attacked early this morning. The
likely culprit? A pack of evil cardinals, which have gotten good at
spotting my breeding cage wherever I attempt to hide it. Two of the
moths were killed and eaten; the third lost three legs, but managed
to flop to the floor of the breeding cage in the nick of time.
"I thought I'd done a good job this time, concealing my spare breeding
cage under the table on our pool deck. In fact, the surviving female,
and one of the doomed pollies, had spent the previous night in the
same spot unseen by the evil-doers. And, yesterday afternoon, my last
promethea female of the season paired with a wild male right on the
front porch. The porch had been the scene of unspeakable carnage
among some lunas and a cecropia two weeks ago.
"As for the poor pollies, I picked up the wings, which had been shorn
and scattered by the birds on the pool deck, for signs that the
females had attracted mates overnight. But no such luck, as the
number of forewings and hindwings totaled two pair each. Seems odd
that three females, scenting simultaneously, failed to attract mates.
But the night skies won't be thick with male pollies here for another
week.
"In past years, the polyphemus females I've reared have always been
reliable at snaring mates. However, unlike cecropia or luna, poly
pairings have all taken place after 1 a.m. here. I might have to give
up polyphemus altogether, or start setting my alarm clock for 4 a.m."
Wings of possible males may have been carried away by wary
cardinals.
Birds are not the only critters that will "pester" an outdoor cage.
Cats are quite curious and intelligent and also eat moths. Nothing worse than
a cat with moth breath. Raccoons are also higly intelligent and quite capable.
Don't just bird-proof your outdoor cages. Make sure they cannot be tipped over and emptied.
Another good article to read is Overwintering Cocoons.
Use your browser "Back" button to return to the previous page.
Email correspondence between myself and this WLSS member is extensive. I always do my best to respond to questions, but it is obvious I could not get anything else done if I attempted to respond to a similar volume of emails from each member. Membership will approach 700 by the end of 2008.
There is a wealth of info on the website. If you have questions, please check the individual species files, the Bill's Articles section and the Members' Articles section before sending me a request for info.
Happy to try to help after you have exhausted those resources!
It is also very helpful to me when you place an order, that you include your full name and also your complete shipping address. I have addresses on file, but your consideration will save me the time of looking it up, and on more than one occasion over the years, I have discovered you are no longer at the address I have on file.
It is also helpful if you indicate your full name and location at end of email to me. I receive literally dozens of emails every day and it is hard to keep everyone straight just by email handle or first name. Knowing your location often better helps me to answer your questions.
And finally, it is really appreciated, if we have an ongoing thread, that you utilize the reply button on your email so that previous correspondence on the topic will be included in the reply and can be examined. Most recent communication should be at top of page.
Thanks,
Bill Oehlke